Season 18 worked so well for a couple of reasons--the script editor and executive producer! The BBC didn't want to hand the show over to the former production unit manager without a guarentee, thus they brought Barry Letts back as JNT's boss--the only time this has happend since the show's inception, when Mervyn Pinfield was termed the associate producer. Letts planned out a theme for the season, based around charged vacuum emboitments(!). Christopher H. Bidmead was tasked with commissioning more science based scripts to fit in with this, and the end result--while subtle--worked quite well.



Unfortunalty when they had left, JNT tried taking this to the next level by commissioning science fiction writers without scripting experience. They found out there was a good reason why this wasn't practiced; it didn't work! A more experienced producer or script editor would have known this; or even have picked up on it earlier.



To take this back to season 24, the number one problem was the lack of scripts. The Bakers got commissioned because they had proven themselves dependable in the previous year's crisis; unfortunatly the results speak for themselves! Of the other three, Ian Briggs' draft was rejected by JNT, and only a rewrite and lobbying by Cartmel got Dragonfire commissioned. And before you point it out; this dosn't mean any of the stories were good; just better than the others on offer.



The show lost a lot more than an experienced script editor in Saward; any of his Who scripts leave the season 24 ones for dead (that's quite an image...), and when even dependable talents like the Bakers turn around and vomit in your in box, and Holmes dies, then the thing most lacking is the ability to find new talent. Cartmel did that in Aaronovitch. That's one we have to credit him for.



Aaronovitch had been rejected from the BBC Writers' Course, his chances of getting the script editor job were buckleys But he was even less expereinced than Cartmel, who was head hunted from a programming job.

James havent you heard the old saying dont judge a book by is episode.



Jamie

The Prez

I agree Martin - Barry Letts was certainly a great influence on Season 18 and a great pity he didn't continue afterwards.



To give JNT some credit, Season 19 was reasonably good - Kinda, The Visitation & Black Orchid were very good stories. 



But after that JNT simply lost the plot and went after the American fans with a vengeance and ignored the quality of the scripts.



Saward got a lot of agro when he was script editor, but I think if he had not been there, the quality of the show would have been even worse - if such a thing is possible!!



At least there was someone in the production crew who truly cared about the show.



His script for the original ending of Season 23 sounds very intriguing and better then what was transmitted.

Well guys, I must put my 2 cents in again and say that Season 21 was also on par with Seasons 18 and 19.

There were classics like "The Caves of Androzani", "Frontios", "The Awakening" and, of course, "Resurrection of the Daleks".



Also, Season 23 WAS good - I quite liked "The Trial of A Time Lord" - Colin Baker had settled into the part, the show stopped being so sentimental and making constant refernces to the past, Peri covered herself up (now, is that a good thing?), and it seemed like things were going onwards and upwards.



Then there came the years of the Mc Coy era. I don't want to offend fans of the time in Dr Who history, as I think I might possibly have done in the past.

However, I personally don not regard the McCoy era as part of the Doctor Who canon. There was absolutely nothing that I liked about it. The production, scripts, stories, effects, acting, music, etc. were terrible..............BUT that is MY opinion.

I can't see any good that Aaronovitch may have done - "Battlefield" could have been a good story, but you still have two minutes of Ace and her friend going "BOOM!" over and over together (which really was infantile), McCoy was screaming at the top of his voice (and damn, that was so annoying!), there were feminist ideologies thoughout the story.......and The Doctor turns out to be Merlin. These plot devices did nothing to help the story - and what could have been a good yarn turned into another painful 90 or so minutes of rubbish to add to the McCoy cesspit.



(And how can anyone defend a Doctor that spent a whole 18 months of his tenure constantly tipping his hat to anyone that met their demise, while 1980s computer arcade game music was playing in the background? How much tackier can you get? Fortunately, no one has been cruel enough to bring back the McCoy formula into the 'new' series.)



Sorry, McCoy fans. Just my opinion.



And as for Hartnell in his garden, that's a small price to pay for what was a excellent story........I can still vividly recall watching "The 5 Doctors" when it was first screened on the ABC........and I was on a high all week afterwards!!!!!



When you're a child growing up with the myths about 'unseen' Doctors before Pertwee and then you get to see them for the first time, the story becomes such a buzz!

(Even though you later find out that it wasn't William Hartnell playing the 1st Doctor!!!!)

Well said Jimmy, I agree with most of your points.



Seasons 21 & 23 were ok.....but not as consistently enjoyable as Seasons 18 & 19.



I enjoyed parts of the Trial season, but I found some of the plotting and acting to be very uneven.



The McCoy years were a waste I agree, but the constant fiddling by JNT, Cartmel and the BBC higher ups all contributed to making that era such a dud.  At any other time maybe McCoy could have been fantastic.



I enjoyed the Five Doctors as well, although I found Hurdnall's 1st Dr to be much harsher than Hartnell would have been - quite frankly Geoffrey Bayldon would have been a much better choice.

Hey Axelf!



Man, I must say that I actually preferreed Hundrall's interpretation of the 1st Doctor more than Hartnell - I know that's strange, but I found him much more amusing and eccentric than Hartnell.

Hartnell was very good in his first season, but in Seasons 2 and 3 he was already beginning to age dramatically, and he did too much of those annoying "Hmmmms" and other grunts, etc. due to his inability to remember his lines.

Hartnell in the first 3 stories was excellent (without any doubt!), but after Season 1 poor health was weakening his performance.



As for Season 18, with the exception of "Logoplis" (an indubitably classic story), I personally didn't enjoy that season as much as Seasons 19 and 21.

* I think that Season 21 is the most underrated season in Dr Who - possibly because it followed on from the utterly atrocious Season 20 (which only had one good story, "The 5 Doctors" ) *



Re Season 18:

"Meglos" was boring, over acted and utterly forgettable.

"The Leisure Hive" had a great soundtrack and ushered in the fantastic (for it's time!) special effects of the opening credit starfield and the 'new' opening music..........BUT........the story was tedious. It really didn't have much to it. Snore!

"The Keeper of Traken" was utterly ridiculous with hopeless acting and (yet another) sleep inducing storyline..............HOWEVER.........the first 5 minutes were good, AND the last 5 minutes where The Master gains his new body were classic moments...........still that 10 odd minutes of entertainment does not make up for the other 80 or so which were, quite simply, a load of rubbish!

- The E Space Trilogy - Now that DID have it's moments:

"Full Circle" gave me the creeps when I first swa it as a child. Now I still enjoy it for purely sentimental reasons!

"State of Decay" - Could have been even better, but was still satisfactory. I think it was the shoddy acting from the supporting cast that made that one a bit weak.

"Warriors' Gate" - Fantastic ideas, and a great performance from Tom Baker and Lalla Ward.....but the supporting cast (and their dialogue) was piss weak. - Again, like "State of Decay", "Warriors' Gate" was let down by the supporting cast and some shoddy lines.



Also........the ONLY time when McCoy was satisfactory or better was in the telemovie.

He really was the worst of the Doctors.

Then after him would come Chris (in desperate need of anger management!) Eccleston - whose interpretation was like he was on speed and ready to go and give people the 'Liverpool Kiss' at a UK soccer match! The guy was so full of anger, bravado, testosterone, bad attitude, temper and violence..........he was definitely the odd incarnation out from the others! I was very glad when he left the series!

Now we have Tennant.......and in my opinion, he's a mix of Pertwee and Tom Baker for the 21st century........a winning element!

Very fair comments - I do agree that I did like the 'TV Movie' version of the McCoy dr better than in the series.



Season 20 was very dire - the gimmick of having every story have an element of the past was awful - The Five Doctors would have sufficed in celebrating the past.



Season 21 was ok, but Warriors of the Deep was a truly appalling start to a season, and some of the stories didnt seem to gel together as well as they should have.



To be very honest, although I have enjoyed the new season, I havent found it to be as consistently enjoyable as the last one.  There are 4 stories I wouldnt want to see again, but 4 out of 13 stories isnt a bad strike rate!



But all of this is my opinion of course, and it's everyone's right to have them!!!!

I thought "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit", even though it blatantly ripped off "Event Horizon" were first class stories.



"Love and Monsters" was excellent for me because I'm a BIG ELO fan!



"School Reunion" was an absolute classic!!!!



"Tooth and Claw" had some fine moments.



"New Earth" was the funniest story in Dr Who ever - and Billie Piper has a wonderful cleavage!



I have really enjoyed this year's series...........EXCEPT you can forget "The Idiot's Lantern" and the 2 part Cyberman story.............the whole screwing around with the history of the Cybermen was a BIG mistake. And I think they're silly going around saying "Delete!" all the time.

* The Cybermen were at their best in the Davison era *



However, I'm really looking forward to "Doomsday" - "Army of Ghosts" has set the scene for a rollercoaster ride to the end of the 10th Doctor's first series........yes?



Also, I personally thought that "Frontios", "The Caves of Androzani" and "Resurrection of the Daleks" were 3 of Davison's best........Season 21 was a good sesaon (and Davsison is one of my most preferred incarnations of the Doctor).

Just try to forget Season 20 ever happened, and watch Season 21 without those disturbing memories!



Seriously, how can you knock "Frontios", "The Caves of Androzani" and "Resurrection of the Daleks" - they're bloody classics!!!!!

The stories you mentioned from Season 21 are pretty good I must admit.  I was just saying that overall the season wasnt as consistantly enjoyable as Seasons 18 & 19.



ok in order of the 10th Drs stories, my opinions are:



New Earth - good story, but needed to be a 2 parter, seemed to have too many things crammed into it just for a stand alone thing.



Tooth & Claw - was ok, but didnt really come together as well as it should have - didnt really 'grab' me as much.



School Reunion - Fantastic story and wonderful to see Lis Sladen again.  A classic.



Girl in the Fireplace - very good, a simple story that had all the classic Who elements in it.



The 2 part Cybermen story - I enjoyed it overall, very entertaining, however I have issues with the Cybermen continuity, they werent really menacing, and yes, they were best during the Davison era for sure.



The Idiots Lantern - I thought was very good, such a silly idea that worked....for me anyway.



The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit - loved it, everyone was good in it, and the story drew you in.



Love and Monsters was an interesting experiment, which I know some people hate, but I liked it.  The ELO references were fab too - long live Jeff Lynne!!!



Fear Hear only barely made it for me, didnt really come up to scatch in my book.



Army of Ghosts was great, cant wait to see the last episode.  Although Im a bit confused as to how the Cybermen were able to ally themselves with the Daleks in the first place.  I cant remember anything in Who continuity about them ever meeting before.



Generally I've enjoyed Tennants interpretation of the role - very light, while having a layer of darkness underneath.  It must be said I think they should tone down the comedy elements a bit  -  some parts of the stories tended to be too over the top.



While I would have given Ecceleston's season a 9/10, this one gets an 8.



Of course everyone is welcome to totally disagree!!!!!

axelf date=02/10/2006 18:13 : "Tennants interpretation of the role - very light, while having a layer of darkness underneath.  It must be said I think they should tone down the comedy elements a bit  -  some parts of the stories tended to be too over the top."

Hey!



What about Seasons 4 - 6!!!!!!

Troughton made an indelible mark as the 'cosmic clown'!!!

With recorder, silly hat and baggy pants!!!!



Dude, I almost agree with all you have said.........and you reminded me about "Girl in the Fireplace" - I don't know how I forgot that one; it was one of my all time favourites!

(Steven Moffat wrote it - and he's the best behind the scenes of the 'new who'!

.......and then there's Sophia Myles - sigh ! )



Hey, do you like ELO?



I used to be an ELO addict, but since my therapy I've got better.

I now only listen to ALL their albums only once a week!

ELO forever as far as Im concerned - although dont mention ELO Part 2 around me thanks!!!!



Ive seen bits of Seasons 4 - 6, so I cant comment too  much.



But Im sure Tennant will get even better as he continues, as most of the other doctors did.....except for McCoy!!!

We should probably take this in the direction of orignial novels in another thread, but before we sign off on this, I'd like to see what everyone thinks of the individual titles. I don't propose another squash table, but here's my personal assesments;



The number one emotional experience Targets have given me is Doctor Who and The Deadly Assassin -- for a decade the only way to seperience this story in Austrlaia was to either read this novel, or go to your local club to view it (which eventually happened).



The best written ones are the first person stories; Rememberance of the Daleks, and that long titled first Dalek adaption. And for me the best written ones I enjoyed the most were Donald Cotton's adaptions of his own scritps: The Gunfighters and The Myth Makers.

The best novels for me (so far - still have lots to read! ) :



Fury From The Deep

Frontios

The Time Warrior

Kinda

The Highlanders

(that's all I can put down so far as 'best' novels)



P.S. ELO rock!!!!!!!!

Also, "The Web of Fear" is a great novel!

I just finished reading Stealers of Dreams (ninth doctor, Rose and Captain Jack)... I will of course be keeping this book away from Master Gregory as we all know his obsession with Captain Jack! However I found it was absolutely fantastic... and very very matrixy! Of course with Captain Jack in it the content was quite light and comical... but unlike some other Who novels I have read it wasn't like a rehashing of past stories ... that is the author didn't keep explaining in layman's terms the TARDIS or who the doctor was as if the reader was reading Who for the first time and I found that quite refreshing.



There is also a reference to role playing games that I found extremely funny... Not good when you're reading on the train and everyone stops and looks at you because you've just laughed quite loudly!!!

I haven't read any of the new series novels - I'm just trying to complete my collection of the Target classic series ones...and I think that's going to be 'mission impossible'!!!!!



...........also I liked your point about the classic ones always taking half a page to explain the appearnce of The Doctor and what the TARDIS was - it was like they were all written for people who have never watched the show!!!

(Pertwee's shock of white hair, Baker's shock of brown hair, Davison's open, youthful face, etc, etc!!!)

Cheers Jimmy, I thought perhaps I was being pedantic about those sorts of things.. however with the earlier target novels I think perhaps they were written for those not familiar with the Doctor or perhaps who were too young to remember what they watched from behind the couch! (I still have a thing about window shop dummies and clowns!)  Perhaps now with the new series 1 and 2 being so popular Justin Richards and the gang have felt that the audience who buys and reads the new series books are well familiar with the Doctor and his entourage and concentrate on extending what we don't get to see during the season as well as giving us our Doctor "fill" until Christmas!!!